Report 390
Report #390 Skillset: Shadowbeat Skill: Nightshadeblues Org: Templars Status: Completed Jun 2010 Furies' Decision: Will boost mana loss by 50% instead of 100%. Problem: NightShadeBlues currently causes double mana drain on just about everything that causes mana drain, from active drains by other people to passive drains from the victim (clot, focus, insomnia, any skill that requires mana usage). In an organisation where mana draining is so prominent and almost every guild has access to a manakill, this song falls quickly into the "too good to be true" category. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Change the double mana drain to only hit on the harbinger skills that drain mana (minor sixth) and the victim's own mana consumption. Leaving all other player's skills as standard mana drains. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: In the off chance that removing the double mana drain from everyone cannot be done, then lower it to 33% or less. Player Comments: ---on 5/16 @ 17:22 writes: Will there be any additional solution suggestions that change the ability while maintaining some semblance of passive offensive support in groups? ---on 5/16 @ 19:41 writes: No, and there doesn't need to be. Doubling the mana consumption of the person hearing the song and the bard's mana drain is more than enough group support. Especially since most, if not all guilds, have ways to cause the person to consume their mana. ---on 5/17 @ 00:15 writes: Unlike other bard specs, Shadowbeat does not give passive afflictions, nor effects like hunger, nor bursts of damage - things which the other bard specs do get which work not only for their own offense, but in concert with other guilds in their orgs. We get Nightshadeblues -- and you are proposing to eliminate this effect in exchange for nothing. Sorry, no. ---on 5/17 @ 01:30 writes: NightshadeBlues is -too good- in an org that has such mass access to both mana draining and mana kills. Shadowbeat has a number of useful group support effects (venomdrops, spiderlegs, bloodycaps, widowsmercy, slaughfest, shadowpulse, wyrdsong...) ---on 5/17 @ 09:12 writes: Shadowbeat seems built around bleeding, which would result in lots of clotting. So that would be their 'thing' I guess, which works for their own offense, as well as helping the other guilds with mana drain. ---on 5/17 @ 15:08 writes: NightshadeBlues is the backbone of Shadowbeat. I'm against this, if the only argument is 'it's annoying in groups', since the same could be said of aeon spam, pinleg, crucify, et al. Next time, try drinking love potion and eating earwort, if it's a problem. ---on 5/17 @ 15:26 writes: Nightshadeblues can be increasingly overwhelming, coupled with a couple choice skills it can be impossible to keep up with the mana loss, although I disagree with deleting it and not providing it with a sufficient replacement. If we can get some numbers on the mana loss tic it could help. ---on 5/17 @ 16:13 writes: Ruiku, he's not asking for it to be deleted, and Nightshadeblues doesn't drain any mana itself, it doubles ALL mana loss. I could see it adding some flat amount, or increasing by some much smaller percent as possible alternatives, but a 100% increase in all active mana drains really is too much, and needs to go even if it doesn't get something else in return. ---on 5/17 @ 17:56 writes: The numbers on mana loss per bleeding tic. ---on 5/17 @ 18:50 writes: The numbers are easy. Take whatever amount you use to clot and multiply that by 2. Multiply everything you do that costs mana by 2, then multiply everything that every else does to you that causes mana loss by 2. Including double haegle which works to mana drain *4. This isn't rocket science. ---on 5/18 @ 03:00 writes: Shadowbeat's bleeding isn't all that much if they aren't using the 3p CrowCaw, Raeri (it's about 150 a tick with hemophilia every tick, can trigger the "Your wounds open and begin to bleed" line to cure hemophilia and clot a couple of times). Long as you don't let the bleeding build up it's pretty much never going to be enough mana damage to get you in any trouble against a lone Harbinger, especially as Harbingers do not have any skills that take advantage of a person with low mana (bleeding only works if they have -no- mana, but healing tomes and sparkleberry take care of that just fine). ---on 5/18 @ 03:11 writes: The abilities you list for shadowbeat's passive offensive contributions to group combat -- two of those are only defensive and another two are parallelled in all bard specs - you're left with reduced venom resistance, mild passive bleeding, passive haemophilia, and if the bleed damage can build significantly before they clot, chance to paralyse. That's all there is - and a flat nerf on its effect in groups and nothing else is just not reasonable. ---on 5/19 @ 21:42 writes: The double mana loss on everything is simply too much. If some bard had a double ego loss song that worked with telepaths, I somehow think we'd all be in agreeance that that's too much. Saying that solution 1 would destroy harbinger's group support is very misleading. Not only do harbingers have all the things Talan listed (plus the balance loss song, which she forgot), but every Glomdoring guild except like, bonecrusher ebonguard, does significant either passive or active bleeding, or both. Heck, even the special Glomdoring brewmeister potion causes bleeding. Nightshadeblues would continue to -double- the mana loss from clotting, as well as regular focus body and mind use, and the harbinger's strongest attacks (crowcaw and minorsixth with manabarbs) would remain just as potent as they currently are. ---on 5/25 @ 01:09 writes: I can agree that a confluence of certain passive effects makes this ability too strong offensively in groups. I'd accept exchanging the double mana loss from the attacks of allies (maintaining double mana loss for all bard attacks and all personal exertion - clotting, focusing, etc.) for a 5-7% mana regen tic for the bard and his allies. ---on 6/1 @ 11:16 writes: Crowcaw only costs 2 power. Someone who knows exactly could help out with the amount of bleeding and the afflictions it does (something along the lines of 300 bleeding, stun and paralysis and/or epilepsy?). In any case, it shouldn't be left out as part of this argument regarding Harbinger offense. It's actually the first time I hear that Harbingers are so weak in direct combat that they need to rely on a support role providing double mana drain for group mates. ---on 6/1 @ 13:05 writes: Report 390 crowcaw costs 3 power and does a short stun + 250ish bleeding, along with 2 of the following at random (paralysis, stupidity, epilepsy, confusion). That's not really the issue at hand here, however. Other specs provide more passive effects in group combat that aid their allies offensively, whereas shadowbeat is carried largely by nightshadeblues. If that capacity is going to be removed, it must be replaced by something. ---on 6/3 @ 18:56 writes: What other specs are you talking about? Please list the skills that other cpes have that aid groups in comoparison to Shadowbeat, cause from what I see, everything in Shadowbeat aids groups. ---on 6/4 @ 08:45 writes: Okay. Omitting Starhymn since that's in review. Compare a high stanza ability that does nothing unless bleed damage exceeds 600, then gives paralysis (shadowpulse) with an ability that gives passive afflictions which get progressively worse coupled with an ability that prevents you from curing them (wrathful canticle/blackdeath). Compare a mid stanza ability that gives mild bleeding+haemophilia (bloodycaps) to one that always gives 1-2 afflictions, which can include paralysis coupled with a song that lengthens focus time (ancientcurse/bluemoon) or one which both gives passive afflictions and rapidly causes hunger (sickeningplague). Compare a high stanza ability that in theory (it is bugged at the moment and does nothing) does passive damage based on the amount of bleeding (widowsmercy) to one that always does passive damage and prevents enemies leaving the room (ancientfued). Shadowbeat comes out behind, and this is just offensive things. (We also do not get the passive curing, healing, faster eq, etc. that the others get.) The place where we come out ahead is nightshadeblues, more predictable/reliable than naturerhythm, and its effects more quickly able to be capitalized on than taintedlove. Remove this, and you are leaving a very obvious disparity. I can accept that certain situations render nightshadeblues 'too good' - though there are plenty of other instances where a group focusing on a specific tactic with the right coordination can seem similarly OP. I don't agree with removing the effect and replacing it with nothing, I've made my suggestion, still waiting to hear any others. ---on 6/4 @ 09:04 writes: I have a mistake above - widowsmercy does damage equal to half the amount your are bleeding (half and a little bit more combined with venomdrops) when you take damage, it's not a passive effect at all. Apologies, I tend not to use it. This seems like more of a one on one skill, and one that is only situationally useful as well. Compared to something that reliably does passive damage with the other effect I maintain that it is worse off from a group-support perspective. ---on 6/4 @ 09:28 writes: You're comparing a single midstanza ability to two highstanza+lowstanza effects there (and bluemoon slows focus recovery a bit, not the focusing speed itself) - I'd compare BlueMoon to BarghestBlues, if anything - the herbbalance disruption stanza. You're also neglecting to mention NightshadeBlues in your assessment - you still get the doubled mana cost for clotting, you still get the doubled mana cost of focusing (Is focus spirit affected by NightshadeBlues too?). You say a crowcaw does 250ish bleeding with 2 of the above - consider how much mana it takes to focus/clot that off? As for support, you still have passive shielding of every ally on wyrden ground, in addition to the bleeding (helps with warrior/monks) - and the mana drain via minorsixth + NSB is hardly something to sneeze at when SD/BT both get a manakill. The report isn't going to remove NightshadeBlues completely - it most likely won't affect the Harbinger at all - It'll still help groups with the double mana cost on most things. What it will do is stop things like double-double haegl, double-double lash, etc. ---on 6/5 @ 06:33 writes: I compared a midstanza ability (bloodycaps) to another midstanza ability (ancientcurse) that happens to work rather nicely with a low stanza ability that you have. Shadowbeat is missing that degree of synergy and it's worth noting. I'd compare barghestblues to lunamelody. What is "double-double lash," unless you mean 2 people using lash in nightshadeblues? This report is asking that the effect on direct mana attacks by anyone but the bard playing the song with nightshadeblues, be deleted and replaced with nothing. ---on 6/28 @ 19:32 writes: I'm fine with nightshadeblues giving mana regen instead of double mana loss for allies. ---on 6/28 @ 22:58 writes: Mana regen for allies works for me too as long as the regen is not so high as to make them immune to mana kills themselves